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K-9 Dachau
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For starters, this is an off-topic discussion and has nothing to do with snuff. Feel free to disregard this if you are only seeking snuff talk.
Those of you who have followed my earlier post entitled "Discrimination" will know that I used to do volunteer work at a local food bank until the director went nuts and decided that my snuff use was construed as some sort of moral infraction and a violation of their ethical policy. In any case, I have since gone on to offer my volunteer service to the local animal shelter.
My problem is this. We have to kill several animals every week due to the overcrowding and various other circumstances. This includes both cats and dogs. As an ex military dog handler I am well hardened to the realities of animal population control and putting them down when needed. However, as I sit here tonight unable to sleep I am haunted by a certain aspect of the euthanasia subject. I observed several dogs pre-injected with a tranquilizer prior to being given the fatal shot which eventually kills them.
I had always been under the impression that these shots would induce a relaxing and painless sleep for the animals. Based upon what I have seen this is not the case. The dogs and cats undergo extreme muscle spasms, yelp and thrash about in the appearance of agony then relieve their stomach and bowel contents before becoming motionless on the damp concrete awaiting their fatal injection into the heart that will finally put them to sleep. Some of these animals having spent the last few days of their existence alone, frightened, and shaking with fear and anxiety because they have been seperated from their families or familiar surroundings. Others are playful and energetic puppies, bursting with life and emotion and eager to run amok and frolock at the site of a human.
Their final lot is to be scooped into a plastic trash bag and heaped into a pile in a walk-in freezer, some maybe even still conscious and aware to some degree of their horrid fate as they slowly freeze to death in the dark.
Ok, I've seen plenty of humans tossed into body bags or shallow graves, some even due to my own unavoidable duties. But to watch these innocent and loving animals writhe in agony is really eating at me. I always thought the euthanasia process for animals was supposed to be humane and painless. Please tell me I am mistaken and that the poor bastards are unaware of what's going on, because they sure don't seem oblivious based upon what I am seeing.
Again, I apologize for the off-topic discussion but this is my only forum outlet and I deeply trust the opinions of the members here. This is bothering me and bringing up old PTSD issues and I'm hoping some of you guys can shed some light on this. Are these animals aware of the symptoms of pain they exhibit and is the euthanasia procedure a crock, or am I just freaking out over old war memories and being over sensitive? -
Hey Spyro
Ive got very little knowledge of the 'techniques' that are being used but I am an animal lover, particularly cats so I can understand how horrible this is. One thing: I don't understand the need for any pre-injection; when we had to unfortunatley have our very elderly and sick cat put to sleep last year, the vet gave him an injection and he passed away painlessly in under 5 seconds. Why is this outfit operating any differently? I wouldn't for a second imply that you are freaking out, but is there any possibility that you got this wrong due to past experiences? Not freaking out, but maybe panicing a little?
Do you feel able to speak to the person in charge and explain your fears around this? maybe an explanation would help - unless there is something very weird going on it seems unlikely that a shelter would be being needlessly cruel. I would say the first thing to do is to get the centre's perspective on this - maybe the cats and dogs are effectively in a coma when you see the distressing signs. When my brothers cat died, he kept on breathing for a while and the vet said it was a reflex. I would want to eliminate that sort of thing.
However, if you are feeling generally sensitive and also dealing with past issues would it be sensible to look at whether animal work is the best form of volunteering at the moment? I don't think I could do it and I'm not living with terrible memories or PTSD.
Don't think you are being crazy or anything - if you are dealing with war memories its entirely understandable to not want to be around more death - is there a veterans association that might be expert in these areas?
God bless my friend
Nigel -
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I'm pretty sure this is the standard form of putting animals down here in the states. The problem I see is the tranquilization process. The initital injection is designed to incapacitate the animal and put it into a totally knocked out form of sleep or unconsciousness. However, what I witnessed was the animals writhing in agony as their muscles locked up and they began to spasm, often yelping in pain and thrashing about. They then begin to evacuate their bladder, stomach, and colon, and around 10 minutes or so they are injected directly into the heart cavity with the lethal concoction designed to cause cardiac suspension. One of the small puppies I helped put down actually wagged it's tail as I gently stroked it just before the final injection leading me to believe these animals are still conscious and aware of what is happening to them. There was even a reported case last year of a dog that survived the process and managed to chew out of his garbage bag and wander about the landfill where he was disposed of.
It may sound strange and trite to relate this to old experiences involving humans, but as a veteran with PTSD I somehow relate deeply to these poor animals who have so much innocence and the fact that I was a dog handler and relied so heavily on my animal for survival. I don't know how long I can stand working around this but in an odd way I know it goes on with or without my awareness and maybe I can provide some comfort to these poor creatures that would not normally be there. It may be some subconscious path of redemption too, I don't know. I'm kind of messed up in that area.
I'm supposed to attend weekly VA meetings with other vets but I don't go for various reasons. Maybe this is a big mistake and I should seek volunteer work somewhere else. I was just hoping someone out there had some knowledge of the euthanasia procedure and could assure me one way or the other that I'm not witnessing horrid cruel deaths. -
Wish I could say something constructive here apart from get out of that situation, sometimes you have to put yourself first
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We had our cat and dog put down in the past few years. It was 2 shots each time. The first shot relaxed them and turned off the brain, it was a heavy barbituant, the second shot stopped the heart. I would assume that it was potassium chloride. I did not see any suffering. I would guess that the person administering the injections simply does not care, or is not skilled. Also, last year sometime, Florida stopped all executions because the needle went into the muscle and not the vein. That will cause extreme pain, so that may be the case as well. I would say something. After all, it's call HUMANE destruction. Or maybe you could report them to some agency.
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I agree that watching these poor innocent creatures suffer is heartbreaking. I also agree that whoever is administering these shots is not doing some part of the procedure correctly. The first dose should render the dogs senseless without muscle spasms. I don't know how expensive these shots are, but it sounds like they're either not using the drugs correctly, or in sufficient amounts. I too would report them somehow if possible as I doubt direct confrontation would get you anywhere; obviously they're present at the procedure and it's not bothering them for some reason. Who knows, maybe the real drugs are being used for other purposes and the animals aren't getting them?
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I think that the cocktail cost around $90 for a dose big enough to execute a prisoner. So maybe around $50?
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Wow this is heartbreaking. I don't know what to say. From my experience with tranquilzers on personal experimentation. They can be really uncomfortable and disorienting. To me it sounds like the animals are frightened and confused more then in bodily pain. Tranqs do kill a lot of pain. Mentaly in high doses they really can cause a great deal of fear especialy if taken in a situation that is already stressfull. If I was you I couldn't do it and would stop immediatly. Hell even if it's fun for the animals (which the way it sounds is that it is a nightmare) I wouldn't put myself through the horror of even questioning it. I've put sick animals down myself the old fashioned way but this I couldn't do. Maybe you could find a no kill shelter or look into orginizations that work towards actual humane exicution methods. Most importantly I would get out of there as it's only going to get worse for you even if you find out somehow that it is painless because trauma doesn't work in reality it works in the past so bringing up the issue on a regular basis is only going to make it worse. With trauma avoidance is actualy the best thing to do.
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I just wonder if the 'good' part has abuse potential and is being used elsewhere and the poor critters are getting the lethal stuff w/out the benefits of the sedative?
It may sound strange to some people but I feel more intense about dogs than most people, they all just seem so innocent to me. I can't even bear to go into shelters for fear of adding any more critters to my household! -
snuffdog that doesn't sound strange at all. I like most cats and dogs more then most people. Much better behaved for one thing.
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There is something definately not right about this, Spyro, why don't you run it by the local humane society (assuming its not the outfit you work for) the more I think of this the more I think something wrong is happening - and I don't just mean the pain for the cats and dogs. I've loved animals all my life, my family and friends have all kept animals and this is the first time Ive ever heard of anything like this.
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A while back I took two of my friend's dogs to the vet to have them put down. He could not face it and that's why he asked me to do it. I held both of these animals while the vet prepared the injections. He handled the dogs very tenderly and even disinfected the spot where he was to inject it! I held the dogs and SECONDS after the stuff was injected, both of them just relaxed and past away. No agony what so ever. Something must be very wrong there. I also love dogs and cried for almost a day when my last dog died of a heart attack.
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I really appreciate you guys responding and commenting on this. I felt a bit uneasy posting this on a snuff forum but the community here is so great that I value the opinions and support.
I've come to the conclusion that the personnel at this particular animal shelter are probably apathetic or unskilled and that this is simply bad procedures they are using. I plan to discontinue working there even tho it will still haunt me knowing that this is going on. As one of you pointed out tho, I have to protect myself and if this is stirring up trauma and reminders of some bad things that I've worked very hard to resolve then its for the best that I distance myself from it.
I did some research on animal euthanasia methods and have learned that there are many different approaches. Some involve a single dose of barbituates and some involve the two stage method which I observed. Since this is a municipal city animal shelter I am dealing with I can only assume they are using the cheapest method. None of the methods are intended to be inhumane and it is not normal for these animals to have to suffer or experience a painful or traumatic death. I will probably drop a line to one of the local monitoring agencies and see if they can follow up on this.
Meanwhile, I will move on to something better suited for me and more conducive to my emotional well-being. Again, I thank you guys for responding and taking time to comment on an off-topic issue. -
Spyro,
1) You are doing the right thing. I think from what I have read that this procedure is being done improperly. There should not be any spasms or crying. You should talk to the person in charge of this facility or as you say, report it to the local agencies.
2) Volunteering is excellent thereputic treatment. Look on volunteermatch.org for something else in your area. There are other animal related jobs that do not involve euthinasia. (One in my area just needs folks to come feed, clean and play with orphaned rabbits!)
3) PTSD is serious. Adding further trauma to it, will only aggrevate it. I would seek a profesional therapist or counsellor immediatley. Abolutley dicontinue having to do anything with any volunteer work that would aggrevate your trauma.
4) Bite the damn bullet and go to your VA meetings. Whatever crap they give you is worth it for the benefit you will ultimately derive. -
Good call to stop working there I think, cheers man, Nigel
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you know this might sound a little rough to some but living on a farm my whole life i've always wondered what happened to (in my opinion) the quickest and most humane euthinazia around which is a well placed bullet. now given there is room for error but i have always been able to (when necasary for butchering or putting down a "terminally sick" animal) drop them just about as quick as it takes to aim and pull the trigger. Now this might be the old fashioned masculinity coming out in me but if i were to have to be "put down" i would choose a well placed bullet, the only problem is that i am the only one i would trust to be accurate enough which might pose a problem :(.
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@Johndeere, my dobie recently passed and I was faced with the decision of having him put down. While I understand what you're saying there was no way in this world I could have put a bullet in my own dog, who was more of a child to me. I can't imagine anyone, no matter how well intentioned, could live with that without being haunted by it for years afterwards. Don't get me wrong, I'm not second guessing your basic good intentions, but there is a big difference between putting down a hog (which I've done several) and your own dog. Fortunately, the ever good boy he was, saved me the trouble and passed while I was at work.
edit: Jeez, what if you're off by a hair and it's not instant, imagine your dog looking at you then? -
snuffdog, i been there done that, but it was by far better than watching them flail around all druged up. now the 5 second and out dealys don't sound too bad but i still trust my shooting, and as i said i would much prefer my dog or myself to go that way. i do understand the logic behind both methods though i just know which i would prefer. (the fact that i have somewhat of a phobia with needles may also add to my opinion)
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Well, I considered that route but am glad I didn't take it. I personally don't think I would be very happy with myself after trying something like that. Like I said, I've killed animals but not ones that were part of the family as it were, and the risk of a flinch or him knowing what I was up to was too much for me to risk. Again, don't get me wrong and if you can live with it I do see the logic, just not for me. I was also terrified of him getting a shot and suffering a painful and slow death, although sometimes, as some have stated, it is quick and apparently pain-free.
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I agree with Johndeere. Or you've gotten to make sure you can hit them really hard. I've known more then a few people who've had suffering pets and through circumstances had to put them down. It's really only easy when you know they're suffering terribly and are not going to feel better ever.
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