SAY NO to unfair tobacco tax increases!

SAY NO
To unfair tobacco tax increases!

A 156% increases in the tobacco tax is about to be voted on in the House of Representatives. I urge you to contact your representatives immediately and urge them to vote NO on the SCHIP bill More info here:

Link

or there is a Link on my website, 'Contact Your Representative' that will get your Representatives contact #'s for your specific district.

Thanks,
Tom

ermtony

156%!! That extortionate! Makes me glad there is no specific tax on snuff here (just VAT at 15% - I can live with that).

Good luck fighting against that one.

mgzinia

Hi all. mgzinia here and I am new to this site.I post under the same name at ryorevolution.com. yeah 156% sucks.totally.As an ryo user I have seen worse.try 2200% increase...ryo users had to switch to "pipe cut" tobacco to avoid this insanity, but now they are planning to tax that another 24 dollars a pound.Cant really be sure if I will be smoking something labeled as" ramback cigars" or "ramback snuff" after that happens, but then the little creeps will be coming after you.I believe they have started to get the picture, now that they have lost Ted the swimmer's seat to a Republican, but I certainly wouldn't trust the Dems if they dont lose some major numbers this coming November.I can understand that some might find this to be a partisan political statement, but, this is indeed a partisan issue.W.,for all his faults, vetoed a much nicer version of S-CHIP everytime it hit his desk.O.,on the other hand, told the senate to write that thing as oppressive as they wanted to, and passed it during his second week in office...not after fixing immigration, not after he brought the troops home,not after the economy improved...pretty much the only thing he did before passing S-chip was to tell senate he would pass S-CHIP.Smokers make up about 20% of our voting nation.That is pipe, cigar, cigarette, and ryo.I am here using my ryo name for a reason...on behalf of those who smoke tobacco, we would like you to join us in handing the Dems their walkin papers.(Also, I enjoy a good dip anytime I cant smoke)
On a pipe tobacco site I saw the question "Whatever happened to, 'I smoke and I vote?'"...Well, I smoke, dip, and I am casting my vote for Forrest Gump on a six day drinking binge next time if he has an"R" next to his name. They chose to tax a minority and say it is "for the children".They are only dragging their feet on this latest bill because they are worried about the upcoming election. If they hold onto their majority they will- without a doubt- punish you.The reward for not standing together was all to real-just two weeks after the 2008 election.They are still planning PACT to stop you from buying through the mail as well...now that you know for certain what they will ram down your throats...stick it up their ass.

kjoerup

@mgzinia:
I'm not sure which planet you're living on, but if you truly believe that there has been any Republican resistance to the PACT and SCHIP bills in Congress, you really need to go back and look at the House and Senate voting records on these matters. The Republicans are screwing you just as much as the Democrats are.

Nachman

There were only 11 votes against the PACT act in the house and my Republican senator replied to my letter against it by explaining why he plans to vote for it.

bob

I really hope it doesn't pass. I honestly think this is another one where they'll vote in concert. So some of them can take credit for trying to pass this bill but not really piss anyone off too much. So I tried to fuck you royal but I couldn't sucede so it's all alright and I'am still an o.k. guy. But if it does pass I say may all who voted for this may their skin explode with lisions and pustuals of grand proportions. :)

watadork

@bob. The sad thing is, that this train of thought is inside most politicians. I too hope this doesn't pass, since I went from packaged cigs to ryo to save money. Then they taxed the hell outta it, so I switched mostly to snus and snuff, now this (my now favorite forms of tobacco) is in danger of being slammed by the man. I hate politics....

LHB

If your Senator or Congressman plans on excercising bipartisanship on tobacco related issues, you need to let them know why you're not voting for them, and why you will support primary challenges against them in upcoming elections. Republicans have been generally better about tobacco related issues, but not by much. The PACT Act has been put on the Senate Calendar before, most recently in 2007, but was never voted on. It was scheduled in the low 300s on the Senate Calendar. The current version is now scheduled 219 I believe on the Senate Calendar, so it stands a good chance of being voted on, and if it is, it will almost certainly pass. Mainly because of the tax revenues.

One problem is that tobacco users tend to feel guilty about their indulgence, and are therefore easily manipulated into not objecting when penalized for their "vice." The timidity of many tobacco users is sickening. If tobacco is so evil, why not illegalize it? The other major problem is that government is working themselves into a fix. Eventually (if taxes are high already), when you raise taxes by a certain percentage amount, total expenditures on the good decline, as do tax revenues. Since our government is relying so heavily on tobacco taxes, they are rapidly getting to the point where they are going to have just as much of an interest as tobacco companies in keeping people on tobacco, and in actually lowering tax rates to encourage tobacco use, thereby increasing total tax revenues. They are also sitting on a time bomb of repeatedly appearing to support corporate and government interests (can you tell the two apart anymore?) at the expense of middle income workers. The Senate election in Massachusetts was a wake up call to all incumbents, but I don't think they've gotten the message yet.

In the meantime, aside from letting them know in no uncertain terms why you're angry, and painting them (in public, as I do in the classes I teach) as fascistic pigs no matter what their party affiliation, the only realistic solution to the problem I see is laying the groundwork for working outside the law. When the law becomes a tool that's used against people whose actions don't offend anybody's sense of natural justice, being a "law abiding citizen" becomes a suckers game. I'm not having any more of it. I couldn't care less about breaking their laws anymore, and using every ounce of my intelligence and energy to frustrate government's attempts to control my life.

I'm especially sick of "The Children" being trotted out as a justification for every kind of evil restraint on my freedom. Normally, I would be completely in favor of a government program to finance children's health insurance, but why should middle income tobacco users, as opposed to obscenely rich plutocrats who are probably getting their Montecristo's from the Taliban, foot the entire bill for the program? So instead of compassion, all I can think of now is "WTF have Future Generations ever done for me?"

watadork

I just sent my senator an email telling him that I have had enough of the damn tobacco tax increases. I said I would not support him in the fall if he votes for the new bill. @LHB I used some of your reasoning to flesh out the email, so thanks for the whisper. I hope more people send in letters about this issue and not just roll over and let the government dominate us all.

kidnapper

I've just tried e-mailing my rep but all links to his e-mail "can't be found". Now I'm really pissed off.

watadork

@kidnapper. Your rep probably has an address that you can send a letter to. It might even be better to send him snail mail since most letters now are in the form of email. I would go as far as to include some research about how much safer smokeless tobacco is in your letter. I found a site run by some doctors who do research on such matters, here's the link

kidnapper

@watadork; thank you very much

Matt

Nachman - what were his reasons?

Zanaspus

Look on the bright side. My other tobacco love is pipe smoking. They're about to hit IT with a 756% tax increase! Always been a liberal, but I think I'm about to become ultra-conservative militia. >.

Nachman

@Matt: He said to collect tax for the state, "and for the children" so they won't have access to tobacco. He is a Baptist and uses no tobacco himself so that explains much of his attitude.

watadork

I just read some of the PACT bill. It was very wordy and I had trouble with the lingo but from what I gather, smokeless tobacco would be a non mailable material as well as cigarettes and pipe tobacco. Cigars are exempted (can you say hypocrite?) I haven't read all of it cause it takes so long to take in. Here is the link to the bill

dgriego

Not much point in me contacting my rep as he is a idiot. He will be voting yes on this regardless if the entire state sent him emails asking him not to. I sent the email anyway.

LHB

I finally got in touch with Senator John Cronyn's office today (it's easier to get in touch with my doctor) and one of his aides is supposed to get back to me. I teach economics at a very conservative Catholic liberal arts college in Dallas that gets a few children of very conservative members of Congress and the Senate, and I've had a number of students go on to political careers as elected officials and conservative think-tank operatives, but it doesn't make any difference in terms of "access" on this legislation. All I hear is that Altria and Reynolds are competing over the PACT Act (I hear that Reynolds is opposed to the Bill), but that the dire state of most State Budgets and the promise of increased tax revenues is overwhelming even the influence of the two corporate giants who are slugging it out.

I'm agitating about the PACT Act btw, not the SCHIP tax; I think that's a done deal. The PACT Act might not be, at least intact, in its current form. One of the potential bright spots is that there are a lot of contentious issues that will probably continue to occupy the Senate before this one, and there's always the possibility that it will just sit there until the 111th Congress is over. Other PACT Acts were sent to the Senate in 2003 and 2007 if memory serves, but were never voted upon, but they were also placed somewhat lower on the Senate's official calendar. Then again, it could be attached to another Bill, and passed in that fashion. I hate the Hell out of politics.

Three months ago, I wasn't really paying attention, but I am now. BTW, I am considered to be one of the token "liberals" (I would characterize myself as kind of a "Liberal Libertarian" if that makes any sense) at the school where I teach, but I can assure you, you're not going to get any sympathy at all from Democrats on this Bill unless they're highly sympathetic to Native American Rights (it would destroy the Seneca Indian economy of Western New York State). Republicans can be made uncomfortable when one points out the anti-market, pro-statist bias of The Act, although they're also made uncomfortable by Altria and a bunch of Republican Governors breathing down their necks.

It seems to me that the best strategy is to work on educating people in the political process about snus and snuff, their value in harm reduction, and the role of "real" tobacco products like snuff in American history, not to mention the role that excessive taxation played in creating the conditions that gave rise to some serious Revolution, like Shay's Rebellion. If you want to continue working within legal channels, however, I'm afraid the day is going to come in the not too distant future when you're going to have to pay some serious taxes on your snuff. I'm much more worried about the accessibility issue. As I said above, I think that when the law oversteps its bounds, I believe it's matter of conscience whether one chooses to continue to obey it or not. One of the clues that this law is inherently unjust is the way it exempts cigars, which tend to appeal to a much higher income demographic than other forms of tobacco. There's no rhyme or reason to that exemption; it just sticks out like a sore thumb, as yet another government concession to the wealthy and powerful, paid for by everybody else. You don't think kids smoke cigars? Hell, I used to steal cigars from next to the counter at 7/11 when I was a kid, which was the cause of my first run in with the law: I was arrested for shoplifting cigars at age thirteen (seriously!).

I can completely imagine myself going through "informal" channels to get my snuff, and continuing to sleep the sleep of the just, regardless of how The Law views my activities. In the meantime, I continue to patronize Nicotinerush with my inestimable custom, and have a bunch of 3L hermitically sealable storage jars awaiting pick up at The Container Store this weekend.

Still, this is pissing me off so much, I just had 1/2 of a cigarette, damn it all!

Spyro

This has surely been said before, but I'll repeat it. The American Revolution was catalysed over taxation and I'm getting pretty damn sick of it myself.

Income tax was only supposed to be a temporary emergency measure to be repealed yet is now with us permanently. In fact the IRS began as a dubious off-shore narcotics taxing agency in the Phillipines and now remains headquartered in Puerto Rico. They were finally legitimized but snuck their way into our lives right in front of our faces. Neither Republicans nor Democrats did a damn thing to stop it. Americans now pay more income tax than ever in history. Only Federal employees and citizens of the District Of Columbia were originally supposed to pay federal income taxes.

Now tobacco bashing and undue taxation have come about. Flat taxes and higher sales taxes have been shot down in favor of taxing the working slob to death yet these indulgence taxes remain and continue to grow. Every instance regarding overtaxation or unreasonable outlawing of black market products has always led to bootlegging, organized crime, and superfluous crime rates. EVERY time. To tell us these tax hikes are for our own good and will protect society is a LIE.

This is not a partisan issue. Republican and Democrat alike don't care if they screw you blind. This is about money and protecting its interest. Rest assured that cutting access to U.S. mail shipping is just another facet of the same scam. They don't care if you use tobacco, they just want total control over your access to ensure the greatest profit.

If the federal government had any sense they would decriminalize marijuana, tax the living bejeezus out of it and leave tobacco sales alone.

Sorry to rant, just getting my chest cleared.

LincolnSnuff

^ +1

Higher taxes are not the right road to prosperity in these times. Extra taxation of banks will stifle the lending and investment that everyone agrees needs to happen to get the economy back on track. Hell, for the last 2 years everyone has been lambasting the banks because of their tightening of credit policy and this would only make it worse. Taxes - including the uncertainty of future taxes - will retard job growth, as businesses will be reluctant to invest in their labor forces because they don't know what crazy policy will be passed next. History has shown that increased taxation on business and investment has led to decreased tax revenue, reduced entrepreneurship, and increased costs to consumers and taxpayers when businesses pass on the costs by simply raising prices. How can these things be good for our country at this time? We need to be taking steps to accelerate the rate of our economic growth by any prudent means possible.

This latest attempt at taxing tobacco is simply another example of the way misinformation amongst the public can catalyze ridiculous policy at the hands of self-serving liberal politicians.

whistlrr

Governments (especially these days) are just plain evil.

There are so many reasons that I say that which go well beyond this topic of tobacco taxation (hey didn't we Americans have a tea party over exactly stuff like this a couple hundred years ago? Remove the "evil English' and then later "evil Commies" and just on and on every other so-called outside threat and guess what.. we become entirely out of control and our own worst enemy)

One day we might all be hiding in our attics like modern day Anne Franks (don't laugh, I'm not)...

Speaking of Anne Frank, for a present one year (while hiding in the attic) she made a cigarette for one of her relatives (who was hiding with her) out of tobacco (and lint) such as she could find from their coat pockets

When its our turn at least we'll have our snuff.. if you have an attic (unfortunately I don't so I'm a bit screwed I guess) and you're wondering where to store your excess snuff. well there ya go... be like the girl and boy scouts, plan ahead, be prepared

LHB

I think I'm just going to start describing myself as an "Anarcho-Syndicalist" and get a "Sacco-Vanzetti" T-Shirt to hammer the point home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacco_and_Vanzetti

On the bright side, who could have predicted that such a genteel, elegant way of taking tobacco would one day come to be viewed as subversive?

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light. - Dylan Thomas

AllanH

Why don't your state secede from USA and join the European Union? Then you'd get taxfree snuff from UK and lowly taxed tobacco from Germany without any hassle for your personal use and universal health care for less tax you pay now due to European cohesion fund. Delaware,New Hampshire and Rhode Island could be the first. Any state without capital punishment qualifies! And EU already has overseas territories around the world, French and British. Actually, travel, trade and etc. would be so much easier then. Hope to see you in Bryssels!

whistlrr

@AllanH

a few states a while back did sort of 'restate our sovereignty" reminding the federal goverment that the states are what make up the whole and the federal goverment works for us (each state) and not the other way aroaund, stating we won't take federal money if it comes with 'strings' attached..

but we're poor.. some of us (states) are really poor, really bad off.. and I don't know what, if anything, ever came of that..

nobody exactly left of course.. but this was a step, an announcement

also I dont think any single state is really equipped to take on, well.. all the other states and federal goverment around them who aren't willing to do the same thing (and may be spineless and just do what they're told), even a state with its own militia wouldn't have a chance in those circumstances

Which reminds me,
Also does this European Union allow for the ownership of guns?

That'd be kind of important to some of us (especially a state with at least its own militia and a few of us are already concerned about stuff like a "one world order")

some states have a particular history and predisposition to mistrust the federal government that goes back into quite some history and with good reason even before the times we have now.

this isn't really about 'tobacco taxes' sorry, but its kind of hard to stay strictly on topic and respond.

Somebody else here might know more about the states who declared what (was a reminder statement really on our parts), what that really meant, and why no states really can or have just up and left the United States to go join a European Union (or anything else.)

AllanH

^ In European Union gun ownership is up to national governments to decide, there's no policy at Union level at level. Finland and Germany are very liberal, Ireland and UK very strict in gun issue. Overall, EU has been good for small, poor countries like Ireland. We're still small but not so poor any more. And more sovereign than ever!

whistlrr

hmmm.. well I just have to say I don't really see us being able to pull off, say, "The Kingdom of Michigan" and "President Granholm"
There's some pretty tough people in MIchigan (and hey, there's Detroit -- nuff said) and its all full of people who got screwed the hardest in all of this (can you say General Motors, Chrystler and Ford?) but its just not that big even though it does have lakes on three sides which is a good lucky strategic thing to have its still bit packed in by quite a few other states on three sides, with Canada above.. who'd probably most likely support the US feds (because the US with the way its being run now is just this big crazy rabid bear nobody can or really wants to even try standing up to from even outside, let alone inside.. Don't get me wrong.. I'm quite patriotic.. enough to say, you know, "look.. we're a bit nuts" (sometimes that has to be done.. you'd tell your best friend if his fly was open right? well I love my country enough to not be blind to the fact that its gone completely out of its mind)

Welcome to Detroit, come back soon...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dtfElE0mg4

...sorry we missed you

bigmick

"President Granholm" That's the scariest thing I've heard in a long time. President Pelosi would be better than that.
I have a friend and a goddaughter that live in Flint. It's really sad how low that city has fallen.

Look into the history of the "Boston Tea Party" involved a shipment of tobacco also, not just tea.

Xander

All pertinant issues and opinions notwithstanding: May I politely request that members refrain form further comments in this thread before it becomes a political battleground in the interests of social harmony? In such situtions someone is usually scapegoated and someone else departs with their blood boiling.

nicola037

As much as anyone would lament an increase in any kind of tax that THEY would have to pay, we are kind of stuck. Tobacco use is on the way down, with, as a whole, fewer and fewer people using tobacco per year in most of the developed world. This means that just to maintain the revenue streams that the governments get from their tobacco sales taxes, they must charge more and more every year to keep from falling behind. And governments right now are very, very strapped for cash.

I also lament that there may be a decreased availability of nasal snuff due to certain pending legislations.

In all honesty, no one is going to feel sorry for an ever shrinking part of the population doing something that has a toxic, and constantly less well viewed reputation and having to pay more. As unpleasant as this is, we get no sympathy and no one cares.

That said, I don't see the status quo changing that much if you do the right things, this is more of a paper tiger. Just look at the left column and you'll find gentle people to help you. If all else fails, flavorless, dry tobacco like the toasts and scotches tend to last the longest, and should be bought in bulk, then stored in double ziploc bags again placed into rubber sealed glass jars in a cool, dark place. If you reall want a menthol or medicated or fruity offering, then you'll just have to cough up the extra bucks at that time.

LincolnSnuff

If I remember correctly, heart disease kills many more people each year than tobacco use. I think taxing McDonalds purchases would make more sense.

Nachman

If any of you do silk screen or have access to someone who does, I have an idea for a shirt. "George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry were tobacco farmers!" with a picture of a tobacco leaf. It would appeal to smokers, snuffers and dippers.

tom502

Flour and sugar lead to more deaths and disease than tobacco does.

ermtony

Perhaps that should be rephrased - "white flour and refined sugar"...

Just my opinion of course.

watadork

@Nachman -- I would definitely buy one in a heartbeat

whistlrr

@nachman -- I really like that t-sirt idea.

@tom502 & ermtony,
then Its a darned good thing we're not putting those up our noses :P
(sorrysorry, just couldn't resist)

Spyro

Didn't Washington also grow hemp?

LHB

@Spyro

Not only did Washington grow hemp, but he was a regular user of tincture of opium (laudanum) which he used to ease the pain of ill-fitting dentures. We should all follow The Great Man's example, dentures or not!

Spyro

I don't know about using opium, but I think a hemp T-shirt with his picture on it and a slogan would be cool.

mgzinia

I guess joe is right, all but a little over 5% of the Republicans voted yay for PACT ACT.And all but .05% Democrats voted for it as well.In Iowa, I will vote out every "Representative",as they all voted yay.See, my children would probably have less if I hadn't switched to ryo a few years back, and maybe this is why "it's for the children" pisses me off so much.Despite the fact that Ted Kennedy introduced S-CHIP,and Bush shot it down,there are still, in fact Republicans just begging us to retire them.Unless you are fortunate enough to live in a state where one of your representatives isn't an oppressive socialist,the choice is crystal clear.Vote out all the incumbents.

Xander

Every socialist I know uses tobacco.

AllanH

Yes, tobacco use and especially cigarette smoking is a lefty thing, actually commie! Working class people have always enjoyed their tobacco in the most imaginative ways: same twist was smoked, chewed and sniffed and often simultaneously!
Good old co-op spirit still lives among snuffers as we have found out lately.

Nachman

The National Association of Tobacco Retailers is faxing a letter to all 100 Senators as we write urging them to bring S.1147 to the floor for a vote. One of the problems is they are organized and we are not. Another problem is they have money.

mgzinia

Interesting. I have always tried to buy locally, in spite of the fact that my local smokeshop charges more for the tobacco than online retailers even after shipping, but now, I think I will stock up online again and will not be visiting my local smokeshop for at least three years.Hope everyone here has the same plan.

LHB

I think I'm just going to start smoking again. I can't handle the Sturm und Drang corruption of all this, and I really don't care about longevity in world like this one is becoming.

proboscis

LHB:

That's just about how I feel, however, if I don't have the freedom of choice to smoke, chew and snuff what I want then I'm just going to give it up completely. Screw the children (not in the wayward priest sense) but I'm not going to be their cash cow for schip and whatever else. They'll get no more taxes out of me. Let them find something else to demonize and tax the hell out of. It's probably not going to be something I do anyway and when those new pariahs (great lovers of freedom one and all I'm sure) whine and complain, I'll ask them, "where were you when they were taxing the hell out of me and banning me from city parks?" I hope, in my own small way, to contribute to the further ruination of this economy.

ukiceman

@proboscis
“Screw the children”

LOL, that’s funny :)

“It’s for the children” is a line I’m sick of hearing in the UK as well

PhilipS

"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government."

Despite the economic costs borne by Britain during the Seven Years War taxes were continuously repealed during the period leading up to the American Revolution. In 1763 the average Briton paid 26 shillings per annum compared to the colonists average ’burden’ of just one shilling. Custom duties were also repealed. The duty on tea was far lower than in Britain. By 1773 they had all but gone. Many colonists were nonetheless led to believe by their wealthy overlords that a tax of one shilling each year was tantamount to tyranny. Now feel the tax pinch. The best thing to do is to tear up the Declaration of Independence, return thirteen colonies (states) to their rightful owners and take up arms against the real tyrants in a new peoples’ revolution :

LHB

@ PhillipS

You've got a deal as far as I'm concerned. And I'll throw in Texas if I get to be Queen. Although I would very much appreciate it if you would avoid making the invidious distinction between "Briton" and "colonist." We are all subjects of The Crown after all, are we not?

BradMajors

@PhilipS: Good plan, although I imagine Delaware might be a tad miffed about their sales tax "burden" going from zero to 17.5% overnight !

bob

Here is a good how bout we legal weed and opium and we can tax that for the childrem. Hell if we did the same thing with herion you couldn't call junkies completely useless. "Mommy why is that man sleeping standing up at the bus stop", "oh timmy he's helping fund your education and medical expenses".

Snifs

bob wrote:
"Here is a good how bout we legal weed and opium and we can tax that for the childrem. Hell if we did the same thing with herion you couldn't call junkies completely useless. Mommy why is that man sleeping standing up at the bus stop", "oh timmy he's helping fund your education and medical expenses".

Oh my goodness!!! now that is funny as hell!